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August 4, 2015
7:00 P.M.

Councilmembers Present Staff Present
Councilmember PflummCity Manager Gonzales
Councilmember NeighborDeputy City Manager Charlesworth
Councilmember JenkinsAssistant City Manager Killen
Councilmember KemmlingFinance Director Rogers
Councilmember Vaught City Attorney
Councilmember MeyerPlanning Director Chaffee
Councilmember Sandifer Development Services Dir. Wesselschmidt
Councilmember KenigParks and Recreation Director Holman
IT Director Mel Bunting
Deputy Police Chief Orbin
Police Major Tennis
Assistant Public Works Director Gard
Neighborhood Planner Grashoff
Stormwater Manager Gregory
Police Sgt. Brim
(Council Committee Meeting Called to Order at 7:00 p.m.)


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Good evening. Welcome to tonight’s Council Committee meeting. My name is Stephanie Meyer. I am a Councilmember from Ward III, and I am the Chair of this Committee. Besides myself, the Committee members here tonight are: Jim Neighbor, Ward I; Dan Pflumm, Ward I; Eric Jenkins, Ward II; Mike Kemmling, Ward II; Jeff Vaught, Ward III; Mickey Sandifer, Ward IV; and Brandon Kenig, Ward IV.

Before we begin our agenda, I would like to explain the procedures for our public input. During the meeting I will offer the opportunity for public input. If you would like to speak to the Committee at any of those times, please come forward to the microphone. I will ask you to state your name and your address for the record, then you may offer your comments. So that members of the audience can hear you, I would ask that you speak directly into the microphone. By policy, comments are limited to five minutes. After you are finished, please sign the form to the right of the podium to ensure that I have an accurate record of your name and address.

I would also like to remind Committee members to turn on your microphone when you would like to speak, so we can get a clear and accurate record.


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: We have two items on tonight’s agenda. Both items are for informational purposes only and do not require any Council action. COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: The first item on tonight’s agenda is to Discuss the Regulation of Food Trucks. Lauren Grashoff, Neighborhood Planner, will make a presentation indicating trends in the regulation of these businesses. Lauren.

MS. GRASHOFF: All right. Thank you for having me. I am Lauren Grashoff. I’m the Neighborhood Planner. Tonight, I’m just going to be talking about some trends with food trucks. They’ve become very popular in the past five or six years. We’re seeing them more now in the metro area and within our community. So, you’ll see tonight I’ve got some examples of what other communities are doing as far as regulations, and then I will also give you information about how we’re currently regulating them.

So, what are food trucks? They are large vehicles equipped for cooking and selling of food and beverages. They are mobile obviously. I think we all know this. They have no permanent location and they can move daily if they want to. They conduct business on public and private property and on the public streets as well.

So, how we are currently regulating them. We do not require them to have business licenses. They do require -- we require that they have food establishment licenses from the state. They can operate on private property at a public event with approval of a special event permit. Those are issued through the Planning Department typically. They are allowed two per year and those are issued to the business on site. So, if someone is having an event and they invite food trucks, we would issue it to the business on site.

They are allowed without a special event permit at city-sponsored events and private events that are not open to the public. So, as you see here such as HOA picnics or company lunches, if they wanted to have a lunch even on a Friday afternoon, they could invite the food trucks. If it’s not open to the public, they don’t have to get a permit. And then also we have them at some of our parks events and also the Spring Starts Here event in the springtime here downtown. They must comply with commercial vehicle parking standards when they’re not operating, which basically would not -- if they do fall within our commercial vehicle parameters they’re not allowed to park in residential areas.

So, these are just some concerns in general. This isn’t kind of specific to our community, but just some issues that food truck owners might have with some different regulations. And this would be the lack of information and support for permits and licensing. That would be if permits and licenses are required, they don’t know about this or they don’t know how to go about getting the proper permits. Time limits, restricted to two hours or less. We’ve been told that it just really doesn’t make sense for their business model to be anywhere for less than that. They can’t make up the money that way. Arbitrarily restricting the vending locations. That would be they wouldn’t be related to any sort of traffic, health and safety concerns. And then requiring permits for vending on private property. They said it can get cumbersome because if they’re constantly doing events on private property, weekly, it just becomes a lot of kind of paperwork.

So, these are just general considerations for food truck regulations. Not everyone does every single item here. These are again just kind of generalizations, things to look at if we do want to go forward with some food truck regulations. So, licensing, there is the local, the business license and then the state, which we couldn’t change that, but we could definitely require proof to show the state licensing. Permits, there would be -- they could vary by type. They could be per event or they can be annually. And then the special event permit could be issued to the property owner or the truck so like we currently do would be issued to the property owner. And then as far as time limits, how long a vendor can be on site. The time frame vendors are allowed on properties. So, if you don’t limit it to say four hours, then it would be maybe they’re only allowed in certain spaces from 10 a.m. to 6 or 8 p.m. So, time frames. And then obviously there would be a cost associated with any permitting.

As far as if you do decide to go the permit route, you would have to look at unlicensed vendors, what sort of the compliance would be for that. If there are no permits that they were issued, the compliance time period and then who would enforce those -- the rules.

Where food trucks can go. A lot of times cities will create buffer restrictions. Reasonable buffer restrictions that don’t block access or view of existing brick and mortar restaurants. And then also limits, I think Kansas City’s is 300 feet from primary or secondary schools when they’re in session. And then before and after it has to do with traffic safety concerns and also you don’t want kids skipping school and going out and enjoying the food trucks.

And then other restrictions might be in parks. If passes are required for special events and then if we would limit location or time. And then restrictions for streets might be where traffic -- there are traffic and pedestrian concerns. And then it’s common that they would be required to face the sidewalk. So, obviously streets like Shawnee Mission Parkway wouldn’t really be a reasonable place to set up a food truck.

Other consideration for where they can be located. Some cities designate parking spots and that could be limited to specific days or times. Vending location could be on private property, public property and then vacant lots. I’ve seen some -- or mention of programs about short-term lease programs where if the lot is vacant it’s a good way to at least get some kind of activity in that area.

As far as when the food trucks are not doing business, there are some instances where they’re allowed at the private residence or they have to comply with the commercial vehicle standards, which is what we currently -- how we currently operate. And then the commissary, which would be the place where all the food trucks have to go after hours. They park their vehicles there. That’s where they do the food prep and then also after once they’re done, they scrub out the refrigerators, sinks, sort of the clean-up and prep kitchens.

And then health and safety, of course. Since it is a food establishment, they are required to have that license from the state and then there are trash and sanitation concerns with at least having access to trash. Recycling could be something that could be regulated and then a hand-washing station. I don’t think this is very common, but it’s something to be considered. I think I’ve seen food trucks having like Purell little stations, so.

So, what are other communities doing? We looked on the Missouri and Kansas side. Missouri has developer some more regulations that some of the communities on the Kansas side. Obviously Kansas City with the First Fridays and different events that they hold they’re kind of more popular in that area. So, they did have the most thorough regulations for food trucks. They do require the health permit and that’s from the city. The business license and then a special permit is required for parks. As far as location, they have regulations that include districts, so they aren’t allowed in Power & Light. Those would be what the developer would put in there in their restrictions. Buffers, they do have again buffers from schools, other restaurants. And then I did include with you guys I included the actual regulations from Kansas City, Liberty and Lee’s Summit if you guys want to take a closer look at those. They do require that their vendors go to commissaries for after hours. They have to show proof of that when they get their license, proof that they have an agreement with a commissary.

Liberty, they have a mobile food unit license, but no license is required if they operate it at special events. They are limited to only doing business in the central business district and those are limited by days and hours. And then as far as after-hours parking, they do not have any restrictions.

Lee’s Summit issues annual permits and they are restricted by location and time as well. And then they have to -- the trucks have to comply with the residential parking standards. So, if they exceed a certain size or weight limit they’re not allowed to park in the residential areas.

As I said, communities on the Kansas side haven’t developed many regulations yet. Lenexa has somewhat similar to ours. They do require a business license. There are fees that are required to participate in some of their different festivals. And then they cannot park in residential areas for more than 24 hours, so that would basically allow them to load or unload at their house, but they couldn’t stay there.

Overland Park from what we’ve heard and from what I’ve researched was this -- there’s no rules, but that means they’re not allowed. So, they cannot park within residential areas either, but they do allow an administrative variance. And that variance basically allows if they don’t have any kind of equipment that extends beyond the vehicle, they do allow a variance for those on a case by case basis.

Merriam, I think some of you might have seen. I think they have a food truck festival coming up, or just had it, but they are allowed at special events. They don’t have restrictions about where they can park.

Olathe from what I understand as well, they’re also not allowed there and they cannot park in the residential areas.

So, I have more information I guess if you guys have any questions. I know there are some food truck owners here I think that maybe wanted to come up and speak, maybe a few of them, and they could offer any questions that you guys might have from that perspective.




COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: On regulating on what you’re trying to propose or put together, it’s not going to do anything to affect like Old Shawnee Days or any of the vendors that we have at that event, is that correct?

MS. GRASHOFF: No. This wouldn’t be for vendors like you said at Old Shawnee Days or any of the parades.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Because we have trucks there.

MS. GRASHOFF: Yeah. It wouldn’t affect that.


MS. GRASHOFF: It would be more on a day-to-day basis outside special events.



COUNCILMEMBER NEIGHBOR: Yeah. Do we know, is there any kind of a food truck association of Greater Kansas City or the food truck people have come together in some sort of an association? Is there anything like that?

MS. GRASHOFF: I have seen some different organizations. I know that kind of the people that we work with for Spring Starts Here, I know they’re kind of -- I think a lot of them are here tonight. I know they kind of work in circles or kind of different groups. That might be a better question for them.




COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: And another thing and questions from the owners of the vehicles too. When they are coming in to do business, are they doing more business at some of our industrial businesses, or are they trying to get in town and parking as you said near restaurants or -- because I believe we probably ought to -- if we’re going to look at some of this, have some -- quite a distance between restaurants and some of our other facilities around the City.

MS. GRASHOFF: We haven’t had any complaints from restaurant owners as far as where they’re parking. I know I’ve just seen some studies, general studies about where kind of the trucks gravitate to. A lot of it is downtown Kansas City. Obviously there is kind of more people there. It’s more of an urban environment, but I have seen that they do a lot of times do kind of tend to go to business parks, areas that like because again they have more people to serve there.


COUNCILMEMBERS: Any other discussion from the Council? Okay. Is there anyone from the audience who would like to speak to this item?

MS. SAYLES: I’d like to speak to it.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Yeah. Come on up. And if you’ll just state your name and your address for the record.

MS. SAYLES: My name is Paula Sayles. My address is (Address Omitted). So, I am in your district.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Are you parked in it?

MS. SAYLES: I’m sorry?


COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Are you parked in it?

MS. SAYLES: No. My husband and I run Smokin’ Fresh Streetside BBQ. And we really having done too much business here in Shawnee actually. We are currently closed because of personal reasons and may not open back up. But I’m here because I just want to tell you that it was difficult to start this business here in Shawnee because it was really hard to find what the regulations were. Most of the trucks that I know that wanted to try to work over in Kansas had a difficulty with all the municipalities trying to find the rules. Overland Park does allow food trucks, but they’re currently rewriting their rules, so I can’t provide that language to you. Maybe they could. And Merriam has given us free rein. What I would say from what I saw here is that food truck owners want to work with the cities. They want to work with the existing businesses. It’s not an adversarial relationship at all. It’s actually more of a symbiotic relationship. We have parked at Beauty and the Best. We’ve parked in the NAPA parking lot there, and Big Bam’s was across the street, and talking to that owner he tells me their foot traffic increases when the food trucks are there for that. We have also vended at the Old Shawnee Days Parade, along the parade route rather than in the parade ground because permits for that are extremely expensive for a company like ours. We are a small business and you know especially for us we did BBQ, we did organic BBQ, and so we had a very small margin of profit. So that’s something for you to think about. I would really, really hope that if you guys were going to rewrite the rules, you would talk to the food truck owners. You have several really food truck owners here that live in Shawnee and they’re very much invested in making sure that what they’re doing also benefits the community. That’s another thing that I would really like to press is that food trucks may move around but we are very much community-oriented and, you know, we are invested in the city as much as anyone else. Is my time up?

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: No, not at all no.

MS. SAYLES: Okay. Now, I had prepared a statement. I can just tell you that I worked with the City of Lenexa. Several of us here as a group worked with them. They’re rewriting their laws. And I could provide what we worked with them on the proposed ordinance if it helps at all. I also have several studies that I could provide to you. And a gal at K-State did her dissertation on food trucks in Kansas City. And so that’s really kind of good pertinent information. And then my final comment would just be a lot of cities are looking at Kansas City Missouri’s rules and thinking, oh, this is what we need to do here. Kansas City’s rules aren’t even that great for Kansas City, Missouri. They could use some work, and so just be really careful to, you know, kind of avoid that thinking. Shawnee is not Kansas City, Missouri and this City could really benefit from food trucks if they’re properly used to attract the foot traffic. And so I just really encourage you to work with the owners. And that’s all I really have to say.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Thank you. And, yeah, I think we would definitely appreciate any perspective you could provide on in terms of regulations for Lenexa or what have you. I might ask to jump in ahead of Mickey. What is it about the Kansas City, Missouri regulations that you might find kind of cumbersome or that we could improve upon if you have thoughts on that?

MS. SAYLES: My thoughts on that are number one what we found I studied the rules very carefully and we built our food truck based upon those rules and then we got over there and found out that the rules aren’t really the rules. They put things in there, they take things out of there. So, I don’t see why any city would want to base their rules on rules that even that city is not really following. That would be the first thing. The second thing is that commissaries are not required in the state of Kansas. The rules for Kansas are different than Missouri’s because Kansas -- when we go to get our state license, our trucks are treated as restaurants. So we have to have everything in there that we would use to cook our food. That’s different than Missouri. Missouri wants you to cook your food in a kitchen and load it into a truck and serve it. So that’s two different things. If you were to adopt the commissary rule, some of the trucks here already have commissaries because they’re doing work over in Missouri. But you’re really kind of going above and beyond what Kansas requires and you’re asking us, which we ended up doing with our truck so that we could work on both sides, you’re asking us to modify our trucks and the way we do our business to fit two totally different ways of looking at it. You know, one is this is your restaurant the other one is don’t you dare cook in here, so.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Thank you, and I would say that any K-State comments are always welcome here, but I’ll defer to Mickey if he had a question for you.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Yes, you mentioned our fees like for Old Shawnee Days and I’m involved with the Old Shawnee Days part. And the venders that we have coming in there in the food trucks, that’s a group of people that go event to event to event. They’re not more or less street venders.

MS. SAYLES: That’s true.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: And they make an awful lot of money in a very short period of time, so for what they pay, it’s very minor for what they make.

MS. SAYLES: I would just say that that’s two totally different balls of wax.


MS. SAYLES: An event vender, they don’t work every single day.


MS. SAYLES: They just work at events and they plan for those events. And a lot of these event venders are non-profit organizations.


MS. SAYLES: Like Kiwanis, Lions Club.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Well, one of the issues that we have that a lot of the venders didn’t like with Old Shawnee Days is, in order for them to be able to serve in Old Shawnee Days they have to give a percentage of their profits to a Shawnee non-profit organization or they can’t be there. So, there’s a lot of people that will not come in for that reason.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Well, let me add one thing. I mean, Old Shawnee Days started out just for the non-profits.


COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: And then they started letting other people in. So, it was only for the churches --


COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: -- and a way for them to raise money.

MS. SAYLES: And I certainly see that’s true in other cities. I think Overland Park started out --

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: And then they got too old to do it, so now they’re hiring people to do it.

MS. SAYLES: Well, all I can say about that is that for us, for the business that we were doing, there’s no way that we could have vended Wednesday through Saturday, so to pay a fee to vend all those days --


MS. SAYLES: -- wasn’t going to work for us. And just logistically, it wasn’t going to work for an organic barbeque food truck to do that. So, you know, to us --

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Let me just make a point that it is two different --

MS. SAYLES: It is.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: -- types of organizations.

MS. SAYLES: It is. And there’s room for both. You know, like I said we did work on a parade route during the parade for a couple of times.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: So, question. Did you get a permit?

MS. SAYLES: Yes, we did.


MS. SAYLES: Yes, we did.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: So, now how do we handle that? It’s a special event, but it’s really not if it’s not downtown or if it’s not down in Old Town.

MS. SAYLES: Anytime that we ever vended in the City of Shawnee, we did so working with a business owner.


MS. SAYLES: It was two separate business owners that we worked with and it was always during an event, a City event.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: You need to say any more?


MS. SAYLES: I think that you would do better not keeping that rule.


MS. SAYLES: We’re going to work with private business owners anyway. Because if you look around the City where would we park? If we didn’t work with private owners, where would we park?

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: And that’s kind of why we’re having this meeting tonight because actually some food truck vendors contacted myself. And so I just wanted to find out from all of you guys what are you interested in. How can it benefit the City of Shawnee and all the citizens? I have a question. So, when it comes to sales tax, where do you guys pay, and I’m sorry if I’m butting. Sorry, Mickey.



MS. SAYLES: We pay. There’s a Kansas state site that you go to and you’re registered and you report, you self-report. And you tell them where you earned how much money and they calculate what the taxes that you owe and you pay it right there through the site.


MS. SAYLES: So, as far as I know you should have been getting money.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Well, and I’m not saying we didn’t. I’m just asking a question.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: We are talking about the State of Kansas here.

MS. SAYLES: Yeah. Well. Yeah. That’s the way that works. And that’s something that has always been a concern of mine is that with the City not having regulations that just any food truck can look at and go, oh, these are were what the rules are. And, hey, we could go talk to this business and start -- you guys are losing a lot of money. You’re losing some tax money. Every time one of us goes over to Kansas City, Missouri to vend, they’re getting the money that you guys should be getting.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Well, I think it’s a great thing. And that why we want to get as many of you guys up here to talk and, you know, kind of help us create an ordinance.


MS. SAYLES: Well, and we have worked -- all these people have worked with other cities, and so we’re happy to do that. Sit down with whoever.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Another question that I have here is, I mean, you’re wanting us to possibly get away from the point that you would have to get a hold of a business owner. Now, in that regards, for example, Old Shawnee Days. And if you didn’t have to go to a business owner’s lot for, say down there, and get an okay from him, that means that you could go in different locations and park and serve food. Now, that means that you could get close to our event and serve food and be taking away from the people that paid to be there.

MS. SAYLES: The way that, like say Lenexa is handling that now is that if you call and ask that’s what they’re going to tell you. You can vend on private property with the property owner’s permission. And the way that they enforce that is if somebody complains, then, you know, if a police officer shows up and you better have that proof that person gave you permission.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Right. But I’m saying that I thought that what was being -- you just made a comment that you wished that we would get away from that.


MS. SAYLES: Just, yeah. I wish that you would get away from the limit of two permits per year --


MS. SAYLES: -- you know, kind of, you know, it costs per permit, you can only do it twice kind of thing. That I wish you would get away from.


MS. SAYLES: There’s other things.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: But not change the point of having to be on somebody’s property.

MS. SAYLES: You know, we have to be. We can’t park on Nieman necessarily.


MS. SAYLES: I mean, you know, there’s no place to park. It’s no parking. So, everywhere we worked, we worked with private owners. A lot of the times when you’re working with a business owner they’re going to want you to give them some money.


MS. SAYLES: Sometimes it’s just whatever money that they have to cover their costs if they have to pay you. Overland Park charges I think $125 for a business to get a license for a food truck to come and vend.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: If there is community events that people are, I’m still going back to Old Shawnee Days. That people are paying to be there and do this, would you have a problem with having regulations of a certain distance away from the event?

MS. SAYLES: I don’t think that that’s unfair. We would never have tried to come up near Old Shawnee Days during Old Shawnee Days because those people pay --

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Right. But I say we have others days too. I just was just using that for an example.

MS. SAYLES: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: You know, so you’re not competing with the people that are paying to do the job or to do it.

MS. SAYLES: They’re paying a lot of money to be there, yeah. And we get that.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: At their events, right.

MS. SAYLES: Because that’s what we do. I mean, we’re paying everybody all the time.


MS. SAYLES: Because we’re paying the county and we’re paying the city and we’re paying the business owner. So, yeah, we get that. We’re not trying to take any money out of anybody’s pocket.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: And Eric and then Jeff.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Yes. I just had a real easy question. I was wondering what you do with your trucks at the end of the day because there’s all these parking restrictions on boats and rec vehicles and all that stuff. Where do you put these?

MS. SAYLES: That’s kind of a thing that you have to deal with. A lot of people have to rent a space for their truck to park, you know, or they rent somebody’s garage or something that they can park in, a warehouse somewhere. For us, we have a trailer. And our trailer can be parked back behind our property line. And so that worked for us. But otherwise, you know, you do whatever you have to do in order to comply with the laws. That’s what you do.


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: You know, I’d be [inaudible] with the permitting, too, because when you look at -- what was the company’s name that, and that’s kind of what Missouri, we used to call them a roach coach, but the food truck that would come business to business every day. What was that? Mobile --


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Mobil-Teria, yeah. So, they didn’t get permits to come to our business every day. And, you know, is it a special event for a hundred people to walk to the side of a door and go buy food off of a truck, no. But kind of what I’m hearing is, if that truck showed up at a business every day are we, I mean, I know a special permit is different. So, let’s say a company out in Perimeter Park called you up and said, we got 150 employees, we want you every morning or every day at noon for a lunch option?

MS. SAYLES: Well, you have to check the rules of the City and they would not -- I always did that and I think all these other trucks do because we don’t want to get in trouble and we don’t want to get anybody else in trouble.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, what’s our rules right now?

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: In Shawnee, if it’s on private property and it is exclusive to that business, there wouldn’t be any permit required. That would be fine.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Okay. So, what if three --

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: But if they’re selling --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Hold on. What if three businesses got together and we want you showing up here every day to service these three business?


CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Our ordinance probably isn’t clear now.


CITY MANAGER GONZALES: You know, one of the reasons that we’re having this conversation.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Because we’re going to concede it as a special event which it really isn’t.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Could be. Depends on where they park.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: I mean, you know, to me if you get a -- we’re kind of just looking at food trucks as the only mobile business. I have a window washer that shows up on my business every day. They probably have a location someplace, but I know a lot of them that don’t, they work out of their garage. You have numerous contractors, they don’t have a location. They show up on site and they do business. I mean, we could run through the phone book and there’s all kinds of businesses that don’t have a physical location. They have a truck and they go do, you know, exterminators. You know, a lot of people in the security business, alarm business, I mean, they’re working out of a basement, out of a garage. So, if this guy over here has got an alarm company and this guy over here is working out of his house, if he has a physical store and then this guy over here has a business permit and goes in and installs an alarm next to that company, are we going to be upset because this guy over here said, well, I’m paying taxes? Well, okay, but, you know, it’s kind of a free enterprise. We’re capitalists. And so, I mean, I’m kind of, you know, my mind is going I like that, you know, I think everybody needs to have a business license. If you’re going to do in business in Shawnee, you’re going to have a business license. We need to know who you are and we need to have that information. You need to pay sales tax. You know, I’m not -- I don’t [inaudible] to lighten up our permitting just because I think it is restrictive on making it more difficult for people to do business and we want to make it easy for people to do business. I don’t think it really heavily competes with your local restaurants. I think when you get, you know, competition is good. You know, anytime you have one restaurant someplace only so many people go there. I guarantee you put three food trucks or two food trucks down the street or within walking distance from that restaurant now you have a reason to go to that location versus that restaurant. And so, you know, the guy might hear about these food trucks and goes to that food truck and he goes, well, I didn’t know this restaurant was here and the next day he’s there. It’s bringing people to areas. And that’s what we use them for. That’s what we use them for in our events. I mean, the whole idea is there’s a following on food trucks and everybody knows it. And I’ve definitely read a lot about them, it’s an interesting business. But there’s people that follow certain food trucks to different events. They follow the groups of them and it’s interesting because they will show up at an event just because those food trucks are there. So, I like the idea. You know, I haven’t heard a tremendous amount of people, in fact, I really haven’t had any complaints. I think they’re a useful tool and I think they’re no different than any other mobile business. They’re just there doing business. I think it’s going to evolve. I think the State is probably eventually going to, you know, you’re going to see some regulations because anytime things go, lobbyists get involved and the special interests. And, you know, I think the industry is going to grow. But it’s a growing industry around the nation. I think there’s -- isn’t there a show or something?

MS. SAYLES: Yeah. There’s at least one show.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, there’s something else I just saw, some big thing I just saw recently about them. And real quick, is the air on in here because I’ve got a lot of people fanning and it’s warm in here. Warm up here. But, yeah. And I don’t say -- I don’t know. I don’t know how everybody else feels about it, but I think it’s a cool business. I think it’s a cool trend. And if we want to be kind of at, well, we’re always thought of as a forward-thinking city, I think we need to get our head around this and I don’t want to be a tail chasing the dog on this one. I think I’d rather be on the front-end of this and not trying to wait and see what everybody else is going to do and do what they do. I think we need to make this easy.


MS. SAYLES: I think that would be definitely the way we were looking at it.


COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Which I’d definitely like to hear from a lot more, but I do agree with Jeff on a lot of his comments. I mean, we want to be as open as possible with, you know, within reason, right?


COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: And the only one I really don’t know that is big -- if you guys are operating and, I mean, there is 25 cities just around here, just close and you’ve got to buy a business license in all 25, I mean, I think that’s unreasonable. If you’re licensed with the State of Kansas, I mean --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, but, hold on, Dan, real quick. That’s just what we said to the door-to-door company. If you’re going to do business -- because they knock on doors in every city in Johnson County.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: You’re opening a big door.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: And we tell them if you’re going to knock on doors in this city --

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Food trucks are a different kind of item though, I mean --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, but we’re telling them. If you’re going to do business in this community, you’ll have a business license. And that’s not uncommon. Even a lot of mobile businesses, you’ve got to go --

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Overland Park doesn’t even require business licenses.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Yeah. Well, they’re writing their rules, they might.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: No, they don’t require a business license to do business in Overland Park.


COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: That’s a Shawnee thing. That’s not every single city.

MS. SAYLES: I’m sorry to interrupt. For the record, Overland Park charges trucks a nice chunk of money in order to operate over there. And then they make it almost impossible for us to do so.



COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: I’d like to hear from other people. And, I mean, your comments are great and all that. And we just, you know, need to get as much information as --

MS. SAYLES: Another thing I just want to say. We never had any trouble paying our $50 a year Shawnee business license. You know, no problem with that at all.
COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: I thought it was 125.



MS. SAYLES: We pay 50. I don’t know.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: The business, the type, the square footage or all sorts of things.


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Is there anyone else from the audience? Yeah. Come on up and state your name and address for the record.

MR. BRADBURY: My name is Michael Bradbury and my address is (Address Omitted). I’ve been in business for five years and I own the funnel cake truck.


MR. BRADBURY: Yeah. You remember that?

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: I remember you from the Rotary event.

MR. BRADBURY: That’s what I like to hear. We gave out thousands of funnel cakes that day.


MR. BRADBURY: Literally, yeah. It was fun. And that’s kind of what we do. We like to go to different events. I like where your head is at. You’re right on track as far as how things are operating. I think it’s more of like catering in a way. Like you said, we don’t necessarily go to the same place every day at the same time, but people are calling and saying, we’d love to have the food truck at our location today and we have 150 employees or more or less or whatever and how does that work and how can we pay you to come out and treat our employees for an employee appreciation day. And it’s growing in every city. Some things I’d like to point out about your -- you were talking about the Old Shawnee Days. I don’t believe that’s an issue because, you know, we have the other 364 days of the year is what we’re here to talk about, not parking down the street from Old Shawnee Days one day because that’s just not going to happen. It’s not conducive to doing business. As a funnel cake guy, I’m not going to park two blocks from Old Shawnee Days and try to sell some funnel cakes just because, you know, that’s not right. You’ve got to have some integrity in business. But one thing I would like to point out is that recently in Lenexa we did a food truck festival and we didn’t know how many people were going to show up, but it ended up being over 5,000 people on a Friday night. It was pretty overwhelming to say the least to have that many people to come out. But we worked very closely with the City of Lenexa to put that event together and it worked out great. Also the City of Merriam, two years ago we lost our house in a house fire. The food truck guys all got together and we had 12 food trucks in the Merriam market and they helped us get back on our feet right away.


MR. BRADBURY: There was probably about 2,000 people that came out just that one night and we had a live band. Our DJ, I can’t remember, but a lot of the people came out for that. And so, you know, I guess I’m talking two different things. You’ve got some special events going on that can help the City and like you were saying, people follow food trucks. On Facebook alone, I’ve got almost 10,000 friends. Crave back there and David White with Prairie Fire Oven, he’s there. Oh, and Joe is here. Several thousand followers on Facebook. And so how we use the social media to help events. Like you said, the Rotary Club, I can’t remember how many people came out, but it was a lot.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Quite a few, yeah.

MR. BRADBURY: And those are great events. And so to your question earlier, there is, the Kansas City Food Truck Association. We started that four years ago. It’s kcfoodtrucks.org. You can find some basic information on there. But I think there’s a lot of food trucks in Kansas City kind of running around -- and the different owners. You know, some of us live in Shawnee, some live in Olathe, some are in Liberty, Lee’s Summit. And so some of them couldn’t be here tonight obviously for those reasons. Just traveling around, you’re not going to get up in the morning and fill your truck full of barbeque or funnel cakes or whatever and go, well, where am I going to go today. That seems like a nonsense way to do business. So there’s got to be a plan of action of how to do it. And so we appreciate you guys letting us come out and speak tonight. If you do have any questions for me, I’d love to answer them and I thank you.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Sure. I would jump in. Your funnel cakes are delicious, so I say that. And second, what can we do as a City to make it easier for you to come in and, you know, sell to our residents and be doing business in the City?

MR. BRADBURY: You know, I think you guys are right on track honestly. And she pointed out a couple of things there that some of the other cities are -- some of it is correct, some of it is incorrect, but it’s always changing. I helped with Gladstone to do some of their stuff and then I sat down with the City of Kansas City, Missouri Health Department and several city leaders to develop some of their rules. And so it’s always changing with construction and things like that. So, I think just the growth of the city. And you’ve got the streetcar downtown now and so we can’t even park food trucks downtown. People always call me at midnight, where’s the funnel cake truck. And I’m like I’m sleeping, but, you know, they want to know why am I not at Power & Light, why am I not at Westport.


MR. BRADBURY: Well, it’s just not conducive to doing business. I don’t want to sit out on the side of a road until two o’clock in the morning and try to, you know --

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: That’s when they want funnel cakes.

MR. BRADBURY: I know. I know.

(Inaudible; Councilmembers talking amongst themselves)

MR. BRADBURY: I appreciate that though. It’s been a fun business to be in and I think you hit a couple great points there. I do appreciate that a lot. It’s just a growing business.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Let me ask a question.


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, how do you feel about the special event permitting then? So, if a few businesses, I mean, this is like, you know, you get a call and somebody wants to do an event someplace or a few businesses, I mean, do you think it’s restrictive to have to go and get that permit to go do an event?


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Because they’re basically inviting you to be at their event.

MR. BRADBURY: Correct.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: But then you’ve got to go buy a permit to be there which then increases your cost which they end up obviously paying you -- that’s just passed on. And I’m just --

MR. BRADBURY: And so think about it like this. If you right now pick up a phone and call Pizza Hut, does the Pizza Hut guy have to get a permit to go and drop off 20 pizzas?

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: No. And that’s kind of where my head is going with it.

MR. BRADBURY: Yeah. And that’s why I say, you’re right on track. You know, I can call a Chinese delivery right now and order $200 worth of Chinese and there’s no special permit needed.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Yeah. So, what’s the difference if the truck shows up and makes it fresh right there while we --

MR. BRADBURY: Yeah. Make it right there in front of them and they can watch it and order it.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Because you’re right. So, if someone has a special -- and so, yeah, let me clarify. So, if someone has an event, are they going to -- are they getting a permit for the event?

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: It would be the property owner that actually gets the permit.


CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Now, maybe the property owner makes an agreement with the driver and says, yes, you can use my property, you’ve got to pay me for the cost of the permit which is what the lady before was saying.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: But is the permit relevant to the food truck or is it an event permit for the event?

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: It’s an event permit, part of an event.


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, it’s not necessarily -- Paul, go ahead. I’m sorry.

MR. CHAFFEE: Paul Chaffee, Planning Director. Clarify one thing. If a group is this one --


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: There’s people at home listening, Paul. We’ve got to get on that mic.

MR. CHAFFEE: Paul Chaffee, Planning Director. If it’s a group of businesses that are getting together to have a food truck come for their employees for lunch or dinner, we don’t require --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: We understand that.

MR. CHAFFEE: -- a special use permit and we don’t require the food truck to get one. The only time that we’re requiring now for them to get the special event permit is when it’s open to the public and the public can actually come and purchase from the food truck.


MR. CHAFFEE: Special events like the City, Spring Starts Here, it’s a City event. We don’t charge them to come. We don’t require any kind of a permit.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, private events.

MR. CHAFFEE: So, private events --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Private events closed to the public, no permitting.

MR. CHAFFEE: -- closed to the public, we don’t require any kind of permit from anyone. It’s when the event becomes open to the public, then we require --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: And we do that for --

MR. CHAFFEE: -- require the permit.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: -- just control of this so we know what’s going on.

MR. CHAFFEE: Correct.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: And we know who it is.

MR. CHAFFEE: And the location to make sure --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Okay. So, we just -- regulations and parking.

MR. CHAFFEE: You know, as the -- when the truck pulls up, it’s not in the right-hand lane of Nieman Road or --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, and that’s what I’m asking.

MR. CHAFFEE: -- that kind of thing.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, let’s say somebody does an event and it’s open to the public though, there’s a permit for that event, but there’s also a permit for the food truck, or does that event permit cover the food truck?

MR. CHAFFEE: It would be them -- oh, sorry.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: And then we tell them if you’re going to have a food truck this is where they’ve got to park or this is --

MR. CHAFFEE: The event permit would be obtained by the business. And then as part of your special event permit when you get one, you have a map with a drawing that shows, you know, if you’re going to have a bouncy house or a food truck --


MR. CHAFFEE: -- and so we know where those locations are so we know we can still have fire access or there’s not --


MR. CHAFFEE: -- potential for folks, a lot of people running across the street or something like that. So, I just wanted to clarify the special event type permits.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: No. I appreciate it because I didn’t quite understand our process there.

MR. BRADBURY: We appreciate that. Thank you.


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Any other questions from the Council? Go ahead. Thank you. Come on up.

MR. IRELAND: Joe Ireland. I own the Crave Truck. Chris and I. She’s sitting back there. I told her to come up here because she’s the business end of it. We’ve had our truck for four years. We live in Shawnee. My address is (Address Omitted). Our business is so good and we had no restaurant experience whatsoever going into this. I was actually retired, happily retired. Cut my grass every other day. This is my son’s idea. He thought this would be a cool idea and he also thought I should have a Dukes of Hazzard car and I built one of those, too. So, you know, our business is such, and we do lunch. Michael does kind of dessert and that they go hand-in-hand. We show up and then he shows up and we’ve done a lot of events where we’re back-to-back. But our business is such we are never just going to pull up to any corner and hope that we can sell something. Our business is such that we’re booked out two to three months in advance every day.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: What’s your food real quick? What do you specialize in?


MR. IRELAND: We do very simply tacos. Three different tacos and nachos.

MRS. IRELAND: Well, we have three gourmet tacos and loaded nachos.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Did you bring samples for everybody?


(Inaudible; Councilmembers talking over one another)

MR. IRELAND: And I tell you what. We are the biggest proponent, and Michael can vouch for that. When we first came into this, we were the biggest proponent for not paying to play. Okay. Down at the River Fest, $700 to get into that. I’m never going to do that. I don’t care how much money you can make, we’re never going to do that. So, when you get into the money, paying to play, we don’t need to do that. We can go up and down Renner Road all day long and sell to big businesses and do very, very well.

MRS. IRELAND: What we really do is, so you guys understand, we don’t solicit business. People call me -- I probably get eight, ten, even a dozen calls a day. I have to refuse more events than I take because we don’t have enough days in the week. We are all over out in Lenexa Industrial Park, those big office buildings. PRA, Silprada Jewelry, the Community America, they call us and say, hey, we, you know, want you to come out from 11 to 1 to feed our --

MR. IRELAND: We were at Jack Henry today.

MRS. IRELAND: Today we were at Jack Henry.

MR. IRELAND: And we won’t go back because the business wasn’t that good. We won’t go back. They want us back, but we won’t go back.


MRS. IRELAND: But that’s what we do. We’re not looking to just pull up on Nieman Road on that vacant lot and try to sell something because A, it’s not going to be worth our while, and B, we don’t need the business. I mean, we’re not poaching. We’re just wanting to go to like office buildings that asks us to come like we do in Olathe. We go to Olathe, we go to Lenexa. And by the way Olathe does let you out there and we pay no permits. Lenexa, we have no permits.

MR. IRELAND: But I think the event that Michael talked about, the Food Frenzy.


MR. IRELAND: That was off of 87th Street, back off of 87th on a vacant road on a Friday night. They had 12 trucks there. They could have had another 12 and they were still all sold out.


MR. IRELAND: They had that much business.

MRS. IRELAND: And we’re going to another one out there.

MR. IRELAND: And there’s another coming up and I can’t even imagine what that’s going to be like.

MR. BRADBURY: That’s actually the -- they’re doing a ground -- that night was the groundbreaking for the new city center of Lenexa.

MRS. IRELAND: The next one they’re having is a lunch. I hope they’re bringing more trucks because we did one other lunch for them and it was --

MR. BRADBURY: Over 2,000 people just for lunch.



MR. BRADBURY: From 11 to 2.

MRS. IRELAND: But then we come up to Beauty and the Best. We’ve been here every year.

MR. IRELAND: Right out here in the parking lot.

MRS. IRELAND: And we hardly have any business.

MR. IRELAND: We won’t, well, we won’t come back to that one. We won’t come back next year.

MRS. IRELAND: I don’t know if something --

MR. IRELAND: It just didn’t happen.

MRS. IRELAND: I know, well, for one thing like Lenexa puts out an e-mail to every business in the city. That entire city knows that we’re coming and --

MR. IRELAND: They come.

MRS. IRELAND: -- you’ve really got to promote it. But we are not calling trying to solicit, they’re calling us. And so I just wanted to make that clear. We’re not just going to pull up somewhere.

MR. IRELAND: Just last Friday night we were at Overland Park Golf Course. There was a couple there getting married in two weeks. This is last Friday night. We actually -- they cancelled their caterer and got our truck to come into their wedding. And when is it, a week from now? Two weeks?

MRS. IRELAND: It’s next Friday night because I happened to have a cancellation and had it open.

MR. IRELAND: Next Friday night. They cancelled the caterer at the last minute like that and had us come in. This is the first time they’ve ever ate at our truck.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: That’s a good wedding food.

MR. IRELAND: So, you know, we don’t have to solicit business. We don’t have to come to Shawnee. We don’t have to go anywhere because they’re calling us.

MRS. IRELAND: But we live in Shawnee.

MR. IRELAND: But we’d love to be here.

MRS. IRELAND: And we pay our sales tax. And if you guys aren’t getting it and [inaudible]

MR. IRELAND: But when the restrictions are as such that they are, we’re just not going to come.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: So, basically our regulations and what our talking about is not even affecting you guys at all right now.

MR. IRELAND: We don’t participate basically.

MRS. IRELAND: We have been asked to come to places in Shawnee, but we have to tell them --

MR. IRELAND: Overland Park Fall Festival, they want us in the worst way. We’ve been there twice. She called again, are you guys coming, I said, no, we’re not. I mean, I’m just protesting Overland Park.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: You’re not making a decision not to come because of our regulations, it’s because there’s not enough business when you’re here?

MR. IRELAND: No. No. There’s plenty of business.

MRS. IRELAND: The two trips, well, I’ve got a big company out there in Shawnee that wants us to come, but he has another event a couple of times a year. And I said I don’t want to ruin your event because you can only have two. And I didn’t know --

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Oh, so the two permits you’re talking about.

MRS. IRELAND: And I didn’t know you -- yeah. Two permits.


MRS. IRELAND: And I didn’t know if they -- well, I guess my question, if they call you, a big business or something in Shawnee and want you to come out like we do in Lenexa, can we do that?


MRS. IRELAND: See, I thought we could only go twice in the whole year.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Only if it’s open to the public by policy and then that’s when the two limit.

MRS. IRELAND: Okay. I didn’t understand that.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: And if they’re just feeding their employees --

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: So, it basically would not affect you anyway.

MRS. IRELAND: No, it won’t, but it has because I haven’t accepted any of those because I didn’t know.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, I think we have some confusion on our --

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s why we’re having this.

MRS. IRELAND: I didn’t realize that.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: And so realistically we’re not affecting them.

MRS. IRELAND: Not that, no. I guess not, but --

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Right. But that’s what their complaint was.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: But I mean if it’s open to the public we’ve just got to narrow down our regulations a little bit.

MR. IRELAND: You know, here is the thing. This thing all started on the east coast/west coast. My truck actually came from New York. The guy couldn’t get a permit. He built the truck. Very nice on the inside. It was brand new. Went to get a permit, couldn’t get a permit. They put a restriction on permits in New York City. Okay. So, he puts the truck on eBay and I end up with it somehow back here in Kansas. When we started four years ago Michael was here but there was just a handful of them.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Is it orange with X on it?


COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Is it orange with an X on it?

MR. IRELAND: It’s orange, but it’s not got an X on it.


MR. IRELAND: It’s close. It’s close.

MRS. IRELAND: No. It is orange though.

MR. IRELAND: But, you know, the thing is it’s still relatively new in Kansas. Okay. In Missouri, there’s quite a few trucks. But for every new one that comes board, there’s one goes out. I mean, that’s just the way it is --

MRS. IRELAND: And the Kansas City, Missouri rule is we cannot park within 50 feet of a restaurant.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Fifty is not real far.

MR. IRELAND: And I had the policeman hold the other end of my tape one day.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: That’s not very far.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Fifty feet is nothing.

MRS. IRELAND: But I don’t have a problem making it further because --

MR. BRADBURY: Why would you park next to a restaurant?

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: And you’ve got to have all your existing restaurants.

MR. IRELAND: That doesn’t make sense to park next to -- we’re not trying to steal their business.


MR. IRELAND: I don’t need to steal their business, we’re going to get it anyway. Okay. I mean, that’s just the way it is. But we don’t need to park next to a restaurant.

MRS. IRELAND: No. I don’t have a problem with that.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: I’ll jump in and Dan and then Jeff. Yeah. Go ahead. Have you got a question?


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Yeah. Did you answer your question?

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Somewhat, but I’ll have another one here. You go ahead.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Any other questions? Okay.

MRS. IRELAND: By the way, Old Shawnee Pizza is our commissary.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: And I don’t know that you need to have a commissary.

MRS. IRELAND: You don’t in Kansas, but we have a Missouri permit as well and we have a Shawnee business as our commissary, so.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Okay. Well, that’s good. But we’re not getting that sales tax from you.

MRS. IRELAND: No. You’re not getting none of my sales tax.

MR. IRELAND: Well, we turn in a little bit, but very little.

MRS. IRELAND: We don’t do much in Shawnee. It’s mostly Lenexa.


MR. IRELAND: Olathe.

MRS. IRELAND: And Olathe.

MR. IRELAND: Overland Park, Merriam.

MRS. IRELAND: Overland Park, Merriam.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: So, I’ll just jump back in. So, on your events there, are you normally selling or are you there -- are they paying you to be there?


MR. IRELAND: It’s a lot of both.


MRS. IRELAND: We do a lot of private things. Companies will pay for their employees and stuff like that.


MRS. IRELAND: But we’ve had quarterly taxes.


MRS. IRELAND: You know, I work for --

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Okay. But on that, you know, that gets back to the public thing because it’s -- we’re probably going to get rid of that rule, I mean, it sounds like because that’s not a really good deal. So, you do sell stuff to people from different -- people that see you out there and they come up and buy stuff, right?

MRS. IRELAND: We have a lot of Facebook followers that find us.

MR. IRELAND: Overland Park has got this rule, now explain this to me. Somebody that’s a lot smarter than I am explain. We can go to Gentiva, but you can’t sell to anybody else.

MRS. IRELAND: An office in one of those big -- but Overland Park’s rule is they can hire us to come, but nobody else in that building can eat our truck.

MR. IRELAND: Now, how do you stop that?

MRS. IRELAND: Well, we don’t even know who is from where.

MR. IRELAND: And why do you even say that? I mean, think about what I just said. That is so stupid. How are you going to stop the people from that building, this building, this building. They see you driving the road, they’re coming, they’re chasing you.

COUNCILMEMBERS: I don’t think Shawnee or anyone is going to be able to explain Lenexa to you in a general sense.

MR. IRELAND: That’s so crazy.


MR. IRELAND: Overland Park. They are very, very backward in their thinking on that. One other thought, I mean, I worked for Deluxe check printers for 33 years and I call it graduating, but I retired from there. And I was on the social committee for many, many years, 25 of the 32 that I put in out there. And we were constantly looking to do things for the people as far as appreciation. One of the reasons we got into this is for company appreciation days. Hoping to get companies to help honor their employees for the good job they do. And a lot of people do. BRR right at 67th and Antioch will pay $2-$3, maybe $5 of a lunch event. So, on an $8 lunch, if they’re picking up the tab for five, everybody will eat. And that really is kind of cool the way they do that. A lot of other companies do the same thing. They’ll pick up the whole tab, you know, and we just keep a --

MRS. IRELAND: That’s the kind of stuff we do, not just park here or park there or whatever.

MR. IRELAND: That’s what we love to do.

MRS. IRELAND: That’s not -- you don’t make any money doing that.

MR. IRELAND: We go to Falcon Valley. We go to Overland Park. We did the Kansas City Country Club. We’ve been to every golf course in the city probably. And we just kind of do sometimes appetizers and they’ve had -- they have their own spread and we have ours. Those guys will eat at our truck before they will do their own spread sometimes, so it works out pretty good for us and them.

MRS. IRELAND: Anyway, I just wanted you to kind of know how our truck works.


MRS. IRELAND: I don’t call anybody for an event.


COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: So, we’re really -- we’re trying to get input, so we can –


COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: -- hopefully help make it better for all of our citizens and all the people that operate them.

MR. IRELAND: Well, I want a couple more from Jeff. Jeff has got good logic on this whole thing I think. I want some more --

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Well, that’s rare. Go on, Jeff.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: I kind of like to eat, so I don’t know if it’s fair for me to --I’m kind of a food person, so I’m all about food.

MR. IRELAND: We were going to bring brownies, but I didn’t know -- we got killer brownies.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You guys have any other questions for us?

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Jim, did you have a question?

COUNCILMEMBER NEIGHBOR: No, I was going to let them -- if we don’t have questions, I just had a suggestion.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Sure. Yeah. Well, thank you guys. We appreciate it.

MR. IRELAND: Good. All right.


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Is there anyone else from the audience who would like to speak? Okay. Jim, you had a suggestion?

COUNCILMEMBER NEIGHBOR: I would just -- I think this has been very informative and I would just ask staff, do you have enough to go and formulate some things and then just bring it up at another Committee meeting?

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Absolutely. Great ideas.

COUNCILMEMBER NEIGHBOR: Sooner than later so we can get tacos.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Tacos and funnel cakes, too. Yeah.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: And I don’t necessarily think that it has to go to a Committee meeting. I don’t know, what do you think? Do we have enough to --


CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Well, I mean, our normal practice would be to draft something and bring it back if there’s more discussion warranted.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: That’s fine. It just kind of --

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: I think we just [inaudible].

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: But I’m not talking about December or anything, you know, I mean, I think we need to publicize, you know, that we’re working on our ordinance and that we make it beneficial for these guys to operate in our City. And I agree with them in making it 50 feet is ridiculous. You’ve got to be away from a restaurant, you know, some distance.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, you really don’t though because that’s what we just talked about was statistics show they tend to improve restaurant traffic, you don’t hurt it.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: We don’t want to make them mad. I mean, that’s the whole thing on that.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: I don’t think you will. I’d love to get some input from restaurant owners. And if they’re up here screaming, then, yeah.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: You would if you put a truck in front of them.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Right. You probably would.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: I’m not sure they would but, you know.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Mickey doesn’t want you to be in Shawnee on Old Shawnee Days.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: He really doesn’t want Old Shawnee Days -- yeah.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Can’t be within 500 miles of Old Shawnee Days.


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Real quick question. So, obviously on private property anybody can, you know, I can call up and I hire this truck. So, what are the rules on public, like our parking lot across the street? I mean, what if somebody wanted to park a truck in a public parking lot, then how does that work?

MRS. IRELAND: Well, I can tell you that. When we go to these large office --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Yeah. Come on up to the --


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Nobody can hear you.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: You’ve got to state your name and address this time.


MRS. IRELAND: Chris Ireland, (Address Omitted). When we go to these large buildings or just this week I had the owner or what was the Shamrock office building at 95th and Metcalf wanted us to come out. And I told her the first thing they have to do is get permission from the leasing agent of the building. And she goes that’s not a problem, we own all these buildings. But that’s what they have to do. They have to get permission.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: No, I understand that’s still private property. What I’m asking about is public property.

MRS. IRELAND: Right. Oh, public property.


CITY MANAGER GONZALES: And Shawnee currently, Paul, you guys jump in if I’m wrong. It would be a special event, so we would only allow it under a special event. So, for instance we used to have, everybody remember velvet paintings? Remember the velvet painting guys would pull up into our parking lots --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, but Elvis, you’ve got to have one then.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: -- and we would not allow private sales from our public parking lots. So currently that’s how it is, you would have to be part of a special event. So, I don’t know if other cities do that differently.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: But let me ask you real quick. I mean, so there is not even an ability to buy a permit, which I don’t disagree with.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Right. We don’t really have that provision.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, you couldn’t, I mean, other than like our farmer’s market, an event that we have that we allow people to come to, but somebody couldn’t just come into our parking lots, even get a permit to do that and go there once a day or --

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: The farmers’ market has certain bylaws on things that they --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: No, I understand, that’s separate. But let’s just say a food truck wanted to park over here because, you know, it’s the parking lot caddy-corner.

MRS. IRELAND: we can’t just pull up into parking lot in the City. Yeah.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, I know you can’t. What I’m saying though is can you get -- there’s not even a permitting process that would allow, so that’s --

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Right. Right. Right now we don’t. There isn’t one in existence.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Okay. And that’s fine. And I’d rather stick to private. So, that’s fine. Thank you.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Thank you. Any other discussion from the Council?

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: We don’t need a motion or anything just to send that back?

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: I don’t think so. I think, Carol, you have what you need?


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Okay. We will move on.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Thanks for all that work on that.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: The second item on tonight’s agenda is a Stormwater Management Program Update. Stormwater Manager Gregory will present information related to the City's Stormwater Management Program. Welcome.

MR. GREGORY: I’m Mike Gregory, the Stormwater Manager in the Public Works Department. Let me scoot this over a little bit. Today I’m going to just give a review of the Stormwater Management Program. And the program itself has a lot of different departments working, doing parts of the Stormwater process, covering water quality and flood plains and maintenance, and all the different regulations that we have to follow as well.

Four main areas that we have in our program are flood plain regulations, which we -- and water quality, pollution control, flood mitigation and storm drainage system maintenance. I’m going to cover these, but mainly I’m going to cover flood mitigation and system maintenance details about that more clearly.

So, the flood plain regulation part of our program is where we maintain our FEMA flood plain maps and we’re part of the National Flood Insurance Program and we’re also a part of the community rating system, which the flood insurance program uses to help give discounts to property owners that have insurance. The CRS program is kind of an auditing. We agree to do a certain amount of things, have certain quality or level of service regulations. And then when we reach a certain level our property owners throughout the City can get a discount. We also do things like flood plain development permits. And we have the good flood plain maps so that we can help new development stay out of the flood plain. That’s the main thing. We’ve done several different studies as well.

The water quality and pollution control part of our program really started up because the NPDES Phase II requirements for all smaller cities, that started about, well, we started working on it about 2005 or ‘06. And so we’ve been at it some time. What it does is help us to improve water quality and different regulatory compliance issues through our Kansas Water Pollution Control permit. We have a five-year plan with them on that. And as part of that permit we do things like water quality education and we have different ordinances that cover Stormwater treatment for new development or erosion and sediment control for development or construction. Several different things. So, different departments deal with the different parts of that. Development Services has a lot of regulations that they apply to their new development where they have to have stormwater treatment like rain gardens or something like that. And then they also issue flood plain development permits. The Codes Department, they do the erosion and sediment control regulations and the stormwater pollution permits are issued through them. We also cooperate through the county and regional organizations like MARC to help keep all of our organizations up, I mean, all of our regulations up to date and really to try to keep the same level as well.

Now, flood mitigation projects and activities basically are those kinds of projects that are funded through our Parks and Pipes, which are matching funds used to help get the matching funds from the county, Johnson County Stormwater Management Program. And we do one or two projects every year. You can see here some of the -- I thought this might be a pointer.

MS. ROGERS: You can use the mouse.

MR. GREGORY: The mouse as a pointer. Here. I have an extra one. So, in 2014, we did this four projects here, but we also did three studies. And we needed to do those studies to help qualify for Stormwater funding through the county. Sometimes we call it the SMAC program. And so from those four or three studies that we did in 2014 we were able to come up with five different projects. Three of them around the Nieman area corridor and then one at 6200 Nieman as well, and then another one at 52nd Circle. They’re different sized studies, but the county paid for 75 percent of those. In 2015, we’re doing several more projects, different phases, and are getting funding from -- some of them also are getting funding from CDBG and some other different areas. In 2016, we have a couple more. I think 60th and Barton. No, I think all three of these are just funded partially through the Johnson County Stormwater Management Program.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Question for you on the flood mitigation activities.


COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Are there any programs available now for buyouts, removing structures from flood plains?

MR. GREGORY: Yes, there are.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: I know there always has been.

MR. GREGORY: There are.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: I’ve been out of the business now for a few years, so I’m not really sure what’s going on right now.

MR. GREGORY: Well, the county, and we attend all the meetings with the county. Actually I’ve been going to those for 20 years. I’m on the executive committee. And part of the rules that are established now is that every study has to give three different alternatives. And one of the alternatives is a complete buy-in. Or another type of alternative could be, you know, constructing channels or whatever and some buyouts and so there’s three different ones. And the county will only pay for the most inexpensive one that will do the work. It doesn’t mean we have to do that one. We may do something that we really want to see happen and not do buyouts and that extra part would be ineligible for the front end through the county.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Is there any federal monies available because those monies weren’t matching, at least they weren’t in the past.

MR. GREGORY: Well, if there happens to be a federally declared flooding disaster, then certain types of hazard mitigation funds are available through the State. And we did use about a million dollars of that when, let’s see, I can’t remember which storm it was. It might have been the ‘98 storm. But some of the houses flooded down on Gladstone. We were able to buy nine houses and move those out or demolish them.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: That hazard mitigation funding program where the money goes to the State as a percentage of the overall disaster costs for that state, those funds are not restricted to the area where the disaster occurred.

MR. GREGORY: As long as your county is declared part of that disaster and then the funding --

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: I don’t think you even have to be declared. I think it can be anywhere in the state as long as it’s an identified hazard area.

MR. GREGORY: Well, that’s something to look into. At the time we did have Johnson County Stormwater Management funding to do a study in there and even remove those houses. And then when this came up with the hazard mitigation funds we were able to reduce the cost to both us and the county, and so it was a pretty good deal.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Yeah. The reason I brought that up is because the NFIP actually had some buyout programs as well, Section 1362 of the National Flood Insurance Act and some other. There was a couple programs there where they would fund some buyouts.

MR. GREGORY: There are.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: And I don’t know if those are still going or if they’re [inaudible] those or --

MR. GREGORY: They are there and they I have seen information on them. And when I’ve looked at them in the past, it didn’t seem to fit well with any other kind of issues that we had going on. For one thing, it has to be in the flood plain.


MR. GREGORY: And most of our houses, you know, we don’t really allow building in the flood plain and so we’re in pretty good shape on that. There aren’t a lot -- there are houses that are in the flood plain, but I’d have to look into more of the details about how that program might work.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: So, are we talking about a flood hazard area with drainage areas of probably less than one square mile that were not picked up as part of the flood insurance rate in that process?

MR. GREGORY: Could you repeat that again?

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: You’re saying we have flood plains that aren’t really identified that we have houses in. And I know some of these stormwater projects --

MR. GREGORY: Well, no, they are identified.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Some of these stormwater projects are identified on some properties where --


COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: -- they flood, but it’s not showing on the flood insurance rate map as a flooded area necessarily.

MR. GREGORY: That’s true.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: And that’s because they don’t -- the flood stage don’t go down below square mile drainage.


COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: And you could still generate some pretty good little floods –

MR. GREGORY: Oh, yeah.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: -- in some of these smaller areas depending on the topography and the hydrology of the area.

MR. GREGORY: Definitely. So, from what I’ve seen you have to be in the actual FEMA flood plain to qualify for some of those funds.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Yeah. I think you had to be for the buyout program part of it.



MR. GREGORY: But for the matching funding through the county, we only have to show that the building is flooded, the home may have flooded once or twice in the last ten years and we get information from the citizens through questionnaires and everything, and we’ve pursued it pretty diligently. When we’ve done that, you know, over the last 20 years, we’ve gotten quite a bit of -- quite a few projects. I think we’ve gotten -- we’ve done about 60 projects and received from just the county and -- just from the county alone I think about 34 million. So, it’s worked out well. We do a few projects every year.


MR. GREGORY: We are coming down to a closing point on it though, although it seems like somebody -- a project pops up here and there that you wouldn’t have expected. And like one of them was this one. This is 52nd Circle right there, or over here I guess. That one just came up and so it was a project that we knew we could get SMAC funding for, so we did it. Do you have any more questions?


MR. GREGORY: Okay. So, we keep our eyes open for any kind of a grant program that might come around. I know I’ve been promised funding was available through the Army Corps for several different things. And so I said, great, and we worked through all the details and I said, so, when will this money be available? Well, 8 to 15 years. So, I said thank you, good-bye. Call me later. I don’t think it ever became available. At least so far.

Anyway, this has been a really great and successful program. And again, to qualify, houses have to flood, streets flood. And if we get enough points, then we can compete with other cities to get the funding and we usually do -- we usually have more than enough projects to do.

This is a map of our storm drainage system showing -- the red is the public maintained pipes and the green is the private pipes. And we have an inventory of all of it just so that we can -- we want to know where water is going to go. We can figure out continuity. You might remember the last year or two ago you could pick -- we have it in our program where you can just pick a point. Like here we found pollution and it would trace it all the way back up to where it might have gone. Or we could find pollution here and it could trace it where it’s going to go. And it’s just we want to have connectivity and that is a part of the water quality in the NPDES requirements that we have to follow. So, that’s worked out real well. And once we got all that done, this is a big inventory, it was a natural step to start doing proactive investigations on all of the system that we had and try to keep track of that. So, we’re just growing our program as we go and it’s working out real well.

These red lines, they indicate about 176 miles of pipe and about 9,900 structures. So, we have quite a few things to keep track of. And we’ve gotten through inspecting about 9,600 structures in the last seven or so years. Some years we did more and some less. We’ve improved our efficiency quite a bit by using Cloud technology and iPads, and it’s really a great thing. We’ve probably doubled our ability to do that.

On the structures, I can review that a little bit, we’ve -- of those 9,642 we’ve found 6,300 good, 1,800 of them were fair and we rated them in three levels and the third level was minor and major type of repairs needed. So, at this time, at this point we’ve already repaired about 216 of those inlets and they’re reclassified into the good and the fair point.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: What’s no access? Just curious.

MR. GREGORY: And no access, that is a lot of things like we have it down as a manhole but it’s really just a connection underground with no lid. Or the manholes we couldn’t them open or they’re way down a hill in the brush and nobody could get to it or even know where it was. And there’s -- its surprising that there are so many. Let’s see, I kind of broke them down. Looks like there were about a hundred area inlets and about 86 curb inlets and then there were a bunch of junction boxes. So, we’re going to continue to work on finding those and maybe getting the lids un-welded or whatever was the problem. Maybe they were too full of debris and we couldn’t look in them anyway. So we have a lot of cleaning of pipes that we do as well.

So, that’s 216 structures that we did. That equaled -- that was about 2.2 percent. And so we still have around 7.3 percent of that 707 that are remaining to be done.

As far as drainage pipes are, we’ve started video inspecting about four or five years ago and that’s really the only way to look into all the pipe and figure out what’s going on. Other cities have been doing it a somewhat longer time period. Some bigger cities have their own cameras. But we started doing it and we have about -- I’ll cover that in a little bit I guess. I can talk about how much we do a year. Anyway, so the 38 miles that we’ve done so far we had, if you break it down, it’s like 21 miles of good and fair and then we had repair and replace. We had more -- right now we still have 5.29 miles of pipe that’s not been fixed but that pipe is lower level, or I mean lower priority or they weren’t emergencies. Because about all that we can handle with our funding that we have is to fix the real emergencies, sink holes and you know flooding issues or cave-ins or pipes that are on streets that have sink holes or undermining a street.

But when we looked at the total number of pipes that we were able to inspect needing repair was about 19.8 percent, almost 20 percent. So, we fixed about 6 percent of them and I’ll show you how we’re doing this year on our program and what might come next year.

As far as how many pipes we video, we try to do about -- we end up doing about ten miles a year and that’s about all we can handle as far as the number of, you know, amount of work of getting all the details together and putting -- sifting through them until we get the highest priority one. So that’s pretty good. We were doing a few less at the beginning, but that’s about the rate we are doing at this point. Drainage structures, we are do about a thousand a year, sometimes a lot more. And lately we’ve been doing a lot more because of our greater efficiency. But it’s about a thousand a year. That way we can get the drainage structures looked at in about a ten-year period. They’re pretty important to do because they’re the opening to the system. So, even the pipes rusted out we want the water to get in there and get out, get going. And we also are able to produce quite a few locations that need cleaning. By the way, I guess 20 percent of our total system would be about 40 miles, so it’s a—

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: What do you think the biggest issue is that creates the need for cleaning?

MR. GREGORY: Pardon me?

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: What do you think is the biggest cause for needing cleaning? What is it? The property owner is throwing stuff down in the culverts?

MR. GREGORY: No, no. It’s just the conditions of the amount of rain that comes and the sediment or sand or other stuff that gets poured in there. If it’s a really big rain, bigger rocks will flow into the pipes.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: So most of it is sediment?

MR. GREGORY: Sediment and rocks and different things. Some areas are well known for having a lot of rocks just--


MR. GREGORY: -- run down the creek and fill them up, you know.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: I was just curious I saw that one picture of the bridge with all that debris.

MR. GREGORY: And that’s not even part of what I was saying. But we have all those locations of the bridges that clog up with logs and everything. Although we did get a call this last week of somebody complaining that they thought a neighbor had stuffed a log into a pipe to stop it from flowing through. So, we were able to pull that out right away.

Now, the next part of our maintenance, let’s see. Covers what field operations we will work on. And they mainly are able to address CSRs, Customer Service Requests, and a lot of those requests are generated by us because we are out there videotaping or inspecting. But when property owners call in with sink holes and what not, we go out there and work on them. And also cleaning of the pipes and there’s a lot of other things they do, replacing driveway culverts. So, they’re pretty loaded up and we still have quite a bit of backlog on that. We have hired some cleaning to be done by like Ace Pipe or someone just to help us get caught up.

Here’s some examples of those CSRs. Sink holes are pretty prevalent when there’s a failure. There’s that picture of that big log jam on Clare Road. In fact, we’ve had so many big hard storms that I know that one place got completely jammed, we cleaned it. Good thing we did because the very next couple days later we got another big log jam that happened. It was almost a flood to some houses, so we really have to stay on top of that. A lot of these -- several of these are just temporary fixes that we are making to some of the pipes. Like this one right here is a big settlement along 71st and Pflumm or 71st and Summit, it’s the next street. And then we are going to be replacing the pipe that’s in there and on down like about 150 feet of pipe that needs to be replaced. So, we try to keep -- even though there’s a sink hole, we try to keep it stabilized, keep it going. Like we’ve talked about Johnson Drive and Widmer area where we say we need to treat that pipe in there. That we went in there and stabilized it and filled in some holes with concrete and did whatever we could to keep it from continuing to deteriorate badly. Although the other day I just walked through it again just to see how it was and it really does need to be lined. And so we are going to recommend the lining of it.


MR. GREGORY: Yeah. Well, no. It really is a special spiral-winding. It’s like a band of plastic with some steel on it and they have them on big rolls and you have a big template or a frame inside the pipe and its 800 feet long, but they will just feed that stuff through and it’ll just spiral wind it and line the pipe and then we’ll fill concrete in between the steel pipe and that spiral banding. It seems to work real well. And they can get into tight places and they hand build it to make it work however we would need. And it’s a good way, we’ve done it in several places to check it out.

Next week at the City Council meeting we’re going to be bringing Policy Statement 8, which is our Stormwater Management Program Policy Statement for improvements, doing county matching funds program, helping citizens do what they need to do or what we need to do. So there is some quite a bit of guidance in it and we’ve just updated it. I just wanted to let you know that we’re going to be bringing that through. We’ll be talking about our priority -- work order priority system and it will be -- there’s really not a lot of changes to it but it will be interesting to be going over that. Hopefully. I’ll try to make it interesting.

Now, this year we have a program, we have about $600,000 that we can fix some of the repairs that are needed. And so this is a list of the ones that we’ve chosen to do. We rated them, we did a ranking 1 through 30 or 40 and we really -- that’s only the high priority ones. I think there were 300 some locations, so we picked the worst ones and we’re going to bid that pretty quickly in the next few weeks I think. The base bid will be about $568,000, but we’re going to alternate bid of about 160,000 just so that if the prices are low enough we can get -- they’re already all in there and ready to go. But the 130,000 of it potentially won’t be able to be funded through the amount of money that we have. The unfunded part of that, here’s a list of those, these are still all the highest priority ones that all need to have something done to them. And I think this is about 550,000 total with 130 from the previous page, that’s about 668,000. And I’m telling you that so that you can see that’s how far off we are able to just do even the highest priority ones. And then next year, by this time next year we’ll have another list of 1 million more locations that need to be fixed or will spring up through sink holes and deterioration and other kind of problems. So we could potentially be under, you know, short on our budget of fixing high priority pipes about 1 million. Sorry. Grabbing the wrong one.

There’s a little bit of a good story though and that’s our CARS program. Whenever we do a CARS program, when we are doing overlaying of the streets like we have been we are able to also, if we include it in early enough, repair any of the storm drainage issues that are in there. So, some of the ones that we have at this point, I know like at Johnson Drive and Martindale, or I mean Johnson Drive, Quivira to Pflumm, there’s about $100,000 worth of work there. And on Quivira Road there’s at least 30 or 40 more thousand dollars, of locations that we are going to include in on those, so that’s a good deal. Now, as far as the larger projects like Johnson Drive and Widmer, we really don’t have, there’s no real available funding to do those. They’re stabilized. Like Seven Hills Lake, we’ve known about it for some time, but it’s rusting out still but it’s not completely starting to cave in. And what happens is the bottom of the pipe will rust out and then it will fold up like that. It’s kind of a weird thing to see it, but it’s stable.

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Are we responsible for their pipe?

MR. GREGORY: Well, in this case it’s our pipe.


MR. GREGORY: Uh-huh. It’s at the -- Lenexa did a lot of improvement down all through there, but they stopped at where our pipe began. And at the time, and that was like I don’t know like six years ago or something, maybe even longer but at the time our pipe was okay. But now it’s caving in on the top and rusting out on the bottom. But it’s still stable enough that, and also it’s out there in the middle of the grass so that if it does fail, nothing really can -- nothing bad will happen, we can just fence it off.

Some of the other projects like Renner Road, it’s just a bunch of pipes that are on Renner Road just underneath Shawnee Mission Parkway, so we’ve turned it into a project. Johnson Drive and Widmer, that same project we talked about, and it’s going to cost about $2 million to line it with that spiral lining, it would cost more to replace it completely. 75th and Switzer is another pipe system along 75th Street that needs to be replaced, bunch of long sections of pipe, 1,500 feet, and we’ll be able to line those as well. Then just recently we found something near Hope Lutheran Church and there a big pipe that was put in some time ago is rusting out on the bottom, it’s collapsing from the top and the pressure is starting to buckle it a little bit. Fortunately it doesn’t have that much dirt on top of it which usually is bad. But in this case it doesn’t collapse it right away, so we’re not too bad a shape. But it’s a project that needs to be done. None of them are eligible for County Stormwater Management Funds, but the cost for them, for those five projects right there is about 4.8 million. And then a few more projects I had on here were some future SMAC type projects for funding there, a couple more and then just some studies that we need to do.

Here’s a picture you’ve seen before, Johnson Drive and Widmer and the 800 feet of pipe in there that we need to line. You can see how it’s rusted out here and that is so typical of any kind of a big pipe that’s rusting out. And we think doing it, just lining it it’s going to be the way to handle that problem.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: That one can’t be that old.


MR. GREGORY: I forget now.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: I’m going to say --

MR. GREGORY: Yeah. Maybe 20 years old.


MR. GREGORY: Oh, so 30.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: I can call Ron Freyermuth.


COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: Yeah. Ron Freyermuth could tell you the day.

MR. GREGORY: I have the list on my desk. If you want me to, I’ll e-mail you.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: It’s approximately Brandon’s age.

[Inaudible; talking over one another]

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Now actually that was the last. I’m going to say the end of the 90s. I’m going to say --

COUNCILMEMBER SANDIFER: You’re going to argue it all the way down there.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Well, I’m just trying to calculate it out.

MR. GREGORY: I’ll send you an e-mail, or Carol will. We could have a contest. Well, we did go through and age, try to figure out the age of all the pipes in the whole City. It was quite a job. We usually gave it the age of the platting of the property, or if we knew about when it was built we would use that date. And so we finally got almost all of them aged and the reason why we did that was one way you can look at, you know, try to figure out how much pipe potential liability in repairs that we have is to figure out the expected life and time. And I have a graph on that coming up real quick here.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: I have a question for you.


COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: This is a problem that’s never going to go away. We’re always going to have aging pipes and facilities.

MR. GREGORY: Definitely.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Would it be possible to do some analysis on this and determine some sort of annualized cost?

MR. GREGORY: Uh-huh.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Because like I said, once it’s in the pipeline, it’s going to keep coming. The ones that are only 20 years old now, 10 years from now they’ll be 30 years old, so, you know, this is just going to keep on happening.

MR. GREGORY: I’ve had that same thought.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: And if there was some way we could at least get our arms around it to the point where, yeah, to do this right and really keep this up it really takes X-number of dollars per year basically. And since we’re already kind of behind the power curve we have a little catch up issue at first.


COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: But then say we have everything going -- it’s like, hey, we’re really doing pretty good. At least nothing is falling apart right now. We need X-amount to just do our routine upkeep and maintenance and keep our fingers crossed that we don’t have things come out of the blue or whatever, but --

MR. GREGORY: And they do seem to come out of the blue pretty regularly.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Yes. And if you could generally some kind of average projected annual cost, I think it would be helpful.

MR. GREGORY: Well, there’s two ways. One is from our experience from doing the inspecting we can see about what percentage of the system is going to be bad. Unfortunately that number is a little skewed because we pick the oldest pipes first and different and steel ones and we tried to do the worst first. The worst first list though has expanded to arterials and collectors and now we’re really focusing on trying to see if we can fix any of the storm drainage system that is going to be involved with any of the mill and overlay program. And since we’re going to be 43 miles a year of that, that means that a lot of our effort will be focused there. But again, it’s only if it’s high priority and we have a lot of them that are not yet addressed.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: And knowing full well that that is an estimate and all that. But just give it your best shot and see what you can come up with.

MR. GREGORY: Well, I have a slide that will kind of shed a little direction to that.


MR. GREGORY: And so I’d like us --

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: Question on that difference between the spiral stuff, you put concrete around it, and the Insituform, they don’t do that big of pipes or how big is --

MR. GREGORY: I think Insituform only goes up to maybe 36, 48, but, you know, depends on who you’re talking to.

COUNCILMEMBER PFLUMM: But we got a lot of those too, though.

MR. GREGORY: Oh, yeah. And we line them with Insituform, a lot of them. We’ve lined pipes with just 72-inch lines that we lined with I guess 66-inch diameter solid plastic pipes, and we just shoved them through. And JE Dunn did a project for that, like under Pflumm just north of Johnson Drive, maybe a quarter mile. And that one worked pretty good. It has some drawbacks, but it doesn’t -- it meant that we did not have to dig up 72-inch pipes that were 20-feet deep. And we were glad for that. So, we look at all the different variations and if we think we need to we bid those to see which is the cheapest. And there are several different other kinds, but we’re pretty well pleased with four or five of the alternatives that we have.

This is a quick snapshot of our 2015 budget and the sourcing of it. General Funds provides a transfer of about 500,000. The Stormwater Utility Fee raises it about 1.7 million, plus we have some carryforward from contingencies and different things. So, this year we have about 1.973 million. And then Park and Pipes, which is separate from most of our maintenance program, is -- this year we’re going to spend about 1.379 million. That’s because we have three or four projects, Johnson Drive and Halsey, 59th and Caenen and 60th Terrace and Earnshaw. That should -- normally that amount of money would produce about $2.7 million of matching funds from the county. So, that’s pretty good.

This is the chart I was alluding to where we evaluated, took another look at how you would evaluate the system just based on pipes being beyond their expected life. So, what we were -- since we found out the size of the pipes, the kind and the age, we came up with this chart. It shows -- and it’s a pretty broad brush. When I said -- when we say the whole system, if we were to replace it today, it would cost about 414 million, our figures were actually 300 to 500 million. Depending on the size, the pipe and which one, it’s very difficult to estimate it like we did. But we felt confident this number was pretty solid. So, you can see on your, at least on your handout it’s peach-colored. I don’t know what that color is. These are the pipes. Above the blue is pipes that are still within their expected life. Today, there’s about $48 million worth of pipe, and we didn’t look at the miles of it, we just looked at the value. $48 million worth of pipe that are beyond their expected life right now. And if you remember before I said that if you took our percentages from inspection, and multiplied it times 176 miles you’d get about 40 miles of pipe that needed to be repaired. And I didn’t estimate the cost of that. But 40 miles would cost about 95 million. I remember now. And in this scenario though shows that there’s 48 million right now that need to be repaired because it’s beyond its expected life. And I want to also say that if a pipe is beyond its expected life that doesn’t mean it got rusted out or anything, it could still be great. Or it could be five years or six years old and something happened to it and we’d have to fix it. So, we put numbers in here every years. So, in ten years the amount, the cumulative amount of pipes that are beyond their expected life, if we didn’t do any repairs to it, would be about 90 million. And then in 20 years it will be 184 million to repair all those pipes at today’s cost.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: And that’s at today’s cost.

MR. GREGORY: Today’s cost.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: Even now amortizing that out would be over $9 million a year --


COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: -- just to keep that up. And we’re putting in about four this year with the additional 500,000?

MR. GREGORY: Yeah. Let’s see. Those county -- the county pipes that we’re doing, that’s about $6 million. Well, let’s see. Let me turn back. We’re kind of ramped up a little bit and so we’re doing about one, two, three, four -- five million this year of flood matching funds through the county, but then we’re only doing 600,000 for the repairs just of wore out pipes, not in the flood, you know, that did not qualify for county --

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: But we were putting 600,000 to what would apply toward this 184 million?

MR. GREGORY: Exactly.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: So, we’re barely scratching the surface on that.

MR. GREGORY: Right. And we’re, well, this shows, you know, that we’re really going to fall behind.


CITY MANAGER GONZALES: Although every time we do a flood mitigation project we’re replacing pipe.

MR. GREGORY: Absolutely.

CITY MANAGER GONZALES: So, then it moves from the -- to a good.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: So, you get kind of a double whammy when we do some of the Stormwater projects.


MR. GREGORY: And we’ve done a lot of those.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: We do get some of the pipes replaced under that program?


MR. GREGORY: A lot of that.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: That helps. Every little bit helps.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah. And it’s been a big amount of work that we’ve done. The amount of flooding we have has dropped drastically and the amount of -- but still as the pipes keep rusting out, we have 104 miles of steel pipe, that’s going to keep happening.


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: I’ve got a quick question.


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: And I kind of brought this up before. I know that, you know, over the years I’ve been watching this and I think we kind of have an issue here that needs to be addressed and I think there’s probably an expectation from the public that we address this and take care of this because this is a big investment that we can’t let get away from us. None of which was concrete, so obviously concrete lasts considerably longer than metal, correct?

MR. GREGORY: Uh-huh.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, a lot of what we’re putting in now, we don’t put in metal anymore do we?

MR. GREGORY: No. It’s been at least two or three years.


MR. GREGORY: Has it been more than that?


MR. GREGORY: Five? Gosh, time flies when you’re having fun.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: But concrete is better --

MR. GREGORY: We changed our regulations to be only concrete and then we will, especially under the right-of-way, only concrete. And we allow some high density polypropylene pipe, which is plastic, but it’s a high grade plastic. And they can use that back on their -- on private property or off of the right-of-way.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: But we’re getting away from metal, correct?

MR. GREGORY: Yeah. No steel pipe.

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: What’s the life expectancy of those vis--vis the metal?

MR. GREGORY: Well, metal pipe, the industry standard for metal pipe is about 35 years. And the industry standard for concrete pipe is about 50, although we occasionally find a salesman that will say a hundred years.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: That’s why they’re salesmen.

MR. GREGORY: I know. So, we use that as part of our figuring this out. How many year old is the pipe, what kind of pipe, how big it was, and the spreadsheet was pretty big.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Well, I think the number we need to see is, you know, it’s no secret we’re one of the older cities in the area in Johnson County in Kansas. So, you know, we have a considerably older infrastructure than probably a lot of our competing cities. Yet, if I’m not mistaken, we have one of the lowest Stormwater fees.

MR. GREGORY: We have the lowest Stormwater fees --


MR. GREGORY: -- for the county.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Yeah. Which just doesn’t -- yeah, for the county, which, you know, for the size of city we are and the age of infrastructure we have, nobody wants to raise fees, but this is black and white to me. I mean, this curve is going to get away from us. You know, Stormwater Fee, there’s a reason for it. And we’re the lowest and we have some of the most aged infrastructure. We really need to take a look at this. And kind of like Mr. Jenkins was saying is, you know, we look at these costs and let’s, you know, let’s look at a number and say this is what it’s going to take. And then once we know that what it’s going to take to get there and accomplish this and I think we’re going to have to make some hard decisions because, you know, there’s not $4 million in the budget right now that we can pull.


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, I think that we really need to take a look. And I’d love to see some comparison on fees from other cities because I know the public is going to hit us on this, but I think we have to demonstrate that this is unsustainable. We can’t continue on like this.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah. The fees range all the way from $3 a month for us, and I should also qualify that, that different cities use different other -- they have sales tax they dedicate to things. They have different other sources of funding. But just as far as the utility goes the rates then go all the way up to $19 a month. And so there’s hundreds of dollars clear down. I think Lenexa is -- it must be eight or nine. I’ll find it.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: But the fear is, and then we’re good for another ten years, but look at Parks and Pipes. You know, if that initiative failed --


COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: -- we would be -- it would be disastrous. I mean, we wouldn’t be fixing anything. That’s what, $1.8 million that that generates and that’s pretty important.

MR. GREGORY: And we’re lobbying also the Johnson County Stormwater Management Program to start including funding for maintenance, a little bit anyway. And also they’re doing a re-study right now, so we’re hopeful that that might come up. But it would still only be a small amount.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: But the fee itself, so how much does the fee generate us?

MR. GREGORY: 1.7 million.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: Okay. So, I mean, you look at that, and that’s $3 a month, which is, you know, I mean, you can’t even buy a six-pack for three bucks. Well, you can, but it’s not one you want to drink.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Well, I mean, speak for yourself, Jeff.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: That’s right. On sale you can. But, you know, I mean, if you just doubled it that’s another, I mean, to $6 and another $3 a month, which is not -- we’re not talking a lot of money, that’s another $1.7 million. I mean, that’s a big chunk of money to get it done. I mean, it’s -- I don’t think we’re far away from getting the numbers we need. I don’t think it’s going to cause anybody major heartburn or break anybody, it’s just, you know, it’s not a massive fee. It’s not like a --

MR. GREGORY: Well, to do the whole amount that we could possibly need would be a really big chunk. And doubling it would certainly put us on the road to being able to do more, but it wouldn’t necessarily be able to allow us to do those bigger projects that --

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: No, I’m not saying just double it. I’m just using an example of saying --

MR. GREGORY: I’m just saying if we did double it.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: I mean every $3 is 1.7.

MR. GREGORY: Yeah. Right.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: So, basically every dollar is 600,000 let’s say. It would start adding up.

MR. GREGORY: And a lot of cities have -- we started ours ten years ago about and, you know, they had built-in changes to increase a little bit every year, different things like that.


MR. GREGORY: So, that’s something we’d probably need to discuss.

COUNCILMEMBER VAUGHT: And where my head is going on this is I don’t, you know, if we’re -- you’re getting rid of a lower grade -- you’re getting rid of metal and going to concrete, so basically we have a longer shelf life. So, do you have a formula that that increases every year or do you stair step backwards? Do you say, hey, we’re behind the eight ball, so we’re going to -- we need money now and we’re going to replace with a better product, so let’s raise it to this. And then every three years we’re going to lower it because as we get ahead of the game here and this is replaced, while, yes, we’re maintaining, our replacement time is going to stretch out. And so it’s not like we’re just going to take this and keep getting more and more and more. We need it now and let’s fix this stuff and then we’re going to continue to reduce it as time goes on and we have less, you know, metal to maintain and a longer shelf life.

MR. GREGORY: And I did include in this chart the decrease from doing new projects. I mean, I’ve included all of it up to date. But in the future we’re going to continue to get more and more concrete and it’ll have a better picture. But it’ll be 20, 30, 40 years in the future before we see that.

Let’s see. I think that’s my second to the last slide. Do you have any other questions you’d like to ask?

COUNCILMEMBER JENKINS: I just want to thank you, that was very helpful. Very good information. Thank you.


MR. GREGORY: Okay. Thank you.

COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Thank you. If there is no discussion from the Council, I’ll ask if there’s anyone from the audience that would like to speak to this item? Kevin? Yeah. No? All right. Yeah. I thought. You looked excited to jump up there.

MR. GREGORY: All right. Thank you very much.



COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: This item was for informational purposes, so no action is needed.


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: If there is no other business to come before the Committee --



COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: We have a motion and a second. All in favor say aye.


COUNCILMEMBER MEYER: Oppose nay. All right. Motion passes. (Motion passes 8-0). We are adjourned. Thank you.
(Shawnee Council Committee Meeting Adjourned at 8:51 p.m.)


I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from the electronic sound recording of the proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

/das August 7, 2015

Deborah A. Sweeney, Recording Secretary



Stephen Powell, City Clerk

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